UPDATE- RESPOND TO COMMENTS
alot of you suggest the same thing- drop down, wise up, take a break. i have been forced to drop down but i realise i'm still a lot higher than i should be. i guess i don't mind gambling with my roll quite abit rather than dropping down. i'm relying on luck a little to get me through the next few weeks. i've played pretty bad for awhile now, alot of stupid decisions, not sure how i would cut this out, perhaps a little more concentration. i don't fancy a break atm, would really like to get my roll up a little before i consider it.
for every comment posted i always give it my full attention and take the advice on board. truthfully i don't always agree with what is being said nor do i always take the advice. in most circumstances however i find the advice given to me very true and helpful (and often supportive) however i'm often unable to put alot of the suggestions into practise due to my unwillingness to play lower tables and treat brm with the respect it deserves. the point is that i probably will not answer so fully to some comments because i feel i am repeating myself often, i still really enjoy reading alot of what you have to say and really hope i haven't stopped anyone posting in the future.
in terms of getting someone to help me with my poker - i'm not sure this would help. i suppose having someone watch over me may influence my decisions in a positive way but i don't know anyone who could do that really. i speak to a few people over msn but they do not stop me losing pots calling with k-high =(. i don't know if there is anyone who can change me to a low level grinder who plays sensibly and only moves up when i have 5000 bb of the next level.
thanks for offer Mr.X but have to decline again, sorry. i'd like to play the bolton event but a bit much for me to afford atm. i wouldn't mind speaking on msn but i don't want to leave my msn where everyone can see it (a few people have had their poker accounts emptied illegally by other people through knowing their msn).
thanks for links wildcat & low stakes, and thanks for all of those who posted in. a bit worried so many of you think i should consider quitting or quit if i don't change my attitude but appreciate all encouraging comments.
since the last post, i managed to scrape together £500 from family that i was owed and won £5900that night, then lost the £6400 the next night as well as £3k isa money. i put the other £3k in and went about £600 down but finished £4500 up for the day + £200 rakeback. withdrew the £6000 plus another £250 for random expenses and was left with just under £1500. i've now lost all of that on $10/$20 and £10/£20. i was up £500-£1000 but not to be. i have to wait about 3/4 days for the £6.25k to come through so maybe won't play.
for every comment posted i always give it my full attention and take the advice on board. truthfully i don't always agree with what is being said nor do i always take the advice. in most circumstances however i find the advice given to me very true and helpful (and often supportive) however i'm often unable to put alot of the suggestions into practise due to my unwillingness to play lower tables and treat brm with the respect it deserves. the point is that i probably will not answer so fully to some comments because i feel i am repeating myself often, i still really enjoy reading alot of what you have to say and really hope i haven't stopped anyone posting in the future.
in terms of getting someone to help me with my poker - i'm not sure this would help. i suppose having someone watch over me may influence my decisions in a positive way but i don't know anyone who could do that really. i speak to a few people over msn but they do not stop me losing pots calling with k-high =(. i don't know if there is anyone who can change me to a low level grinder who plays sensibly and only moves up when i have 5000 bb of the next level.
thanks for offer Mr.X but have to decline again, sorry. i'd like to play the bolton event but a bit much for me to afford atm. i wouldn't mind speaking on msn but i don't want to leave my msn where everyone can see it (a few people have had their poker accounts emptied illegally by other people through knowing their msn).
thanks for links wildcat & low stakes, and thanks for all of those who posted in. a bit worried so many of you think i should consider quitting or quit if i don't change my attitude but appreciate all encouraging comments.
since the last post, i managed to scrape together £500 from family that i was owed and won £5900that night, then lost the £6400 the next night as well as £3k isa money. i put the other £3k in and went about £600 down but finished £4500 up for the day + £200 rakeback. withdrew the £6000 plus another £250 for random expenses and was left with just under £1500. i've now lost all of that on $10/$20 and £10/£20. i was up £500-£1000 but not to be. i have to wait about 3/4 days for the £6.25k to come through so maybe won't play.
posted by Ed Hollis at 8:49 PM
35 Comments:
Youpare going to go broke without a doubt dont wish it. But you will lose and eventually borrow money which you will lose and then borrow money. Your going to get to a point where you are in loads of debt and no one will lend you any money. Like i say dont wish but its inevitable the way you play and dont seem to care. When you have to get a minimum wage job and work 9 - 5 you will see what a terrible mistake you have made. Its sad but true.
Well I've read your whole blog over the last few days. You have one of the
attributes of a top-class poker player (a remarkable ability not to play
with scared money), but sadly not all of them (discipline, BRM ...).
Sadly I'm going to add my name to those who have given you advice in the
past, all of which you've declined to take on board.
Random thoughts:
1) Your going to go broke. In fact your virtually broke already.
2) Your already borrowing money from people to get you restarted. You've dipped
into your life-savings, but one day, soon, they will be gone too. Soon eveyone
who would lend you £1K to get started will have done, and you (after some ups
and downs) will have lost the lot.
3) Playing poker for a living is pretty boring. If you play it so that
a large % of your bankroll is at stake (as you do, so you enjoy it) then
you'll go bust. Again and again.
4) You keep no records of how you are playing. None. You don't even know
at which levels you are profitable, and which you are not. Players get
better as you go up, and you'll reach your level one day. The trick
is to play just below this line.
One day, sadly, it will hit you how much money you've had and how much you've
lost. At least I hope thats the case. The alternative is a descent (further?)
into addiction, with continued efforts to rebuild your roll.
You sound like nice kid. You could have a good future and I wish you well.
I just hope you are able to control your desire to play where the action is, and
please please please ... don't borrow too much money.
Give me a shout i will watch you on a table for a few hours if you want.
Genuinely hope you succeed and no matter what you lost so far it was all winnings so whilst hard its not the end of the world.
One thing i cant stress enough is never to borrow or cash in investments etc to play.
You clearly have some poker ability but even the best in the world fail if they tilt and or have no bankroll management skills.
Give me a shout.
Paul
Yeah its now getting more and more clear.
You dont want to really get help. Refusing to try and find a poker coach when you have access to so many good/great players is a big mistake.
You dont want to play lower--you want the excitement of risking your roll on every session...and thus you WILL risk your roll on every session.
This will lead to bankruptcy for certain.
The only chance now is for you to have some real moment of clarity about your actions--not sure what will cause it.
But regardless, you sound like a very nice, sincere guy, who will be OK in the long run.
Good luck with everything. Truly.
Dude, I haven't posted on here before because I didn't think anything I could say would make any difference, but now, please think about quitting. You're young, obviously bright, and there's nothing wrong with starting afresh from zero. But if you borrow money to play, you will lose it all, and be saddled with a debt which will dog you for years to come. Please think about it.
And just as I say "don't borrow" to Blue, please "don't lend" to anyone else. You'll be making things worse.
I honestly wish you the best,
Andy.
Bluescouse.
Read Stu Ungar's biography. If you take out the drugs and the totoured life then you're pretty much his story.
Although his leaks tended to be in sport betting, your leak is just poker itself. Am I right in thinking your bankroll was at $250k once? That means you've gambled with a cool half a million dollars to first win it and then lose it.
Surely you're only option now 'is' to grind.
By the way, whoever offered bluescouse the tutoring, I'll have it if he doesn't want it. I'm a whizz on the $4 Sit and Gos!
Felix
i've read all the comments on this blog and they are almost all along the same lines.
However I havent seen much indication you can beat NL1/2 let alone the higher limits. It's not like you have much of a sample size to backup that you are a winning player.
you're on that poker crack dood, and until you realise it i don't think theres much anyone can do.
Bluecouse,
I have played you on crypto over last couple of years. Sometimes you play really really well, and sometimes so awful. You need to pack up poker or get advice from winning online players and take it onboard.
Rob
LOL Stu Ungar, Bluescouse is not!
Just out of interest, what's the point of having an isa if you're not a tax payer anyway? Is it deliberately just to lock up some cash that isn't immediately available?
Same reason why anyone else would have one surely - theyre good investments
I would add my own voice but i thought a few quotes would express my feelings more succinctly;
"Against logic there is no armor like ignorance."
-------Laurence J. Peter
and
"Nothing is worse than active ignorance."
-------Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
You have an unhealthy addiction mate, and, unfortunately, there are many people out there who may give you poor advice in order to fulfill their fantasy of car crash poker.
You have to work out why you are playing. Are you doing it for the buzz or to make money? If it's the former, as it sounds like it is, then you're only ever going to do your bollox.
Doing your bollox is fine if you can afford it, but if you're going into isa's and whatnot, then it's a dangerous game to play and will only end in tears.
You should seriously consider quitting until you can sort out your discipline, otherwise you're gonna get deep in shit.
Whatever you do, don't get yourself into any kind of debt to feed your love of poker and the 'big games'.
all the best,
snoops
Well we have opposite problems, I have almost 50k recorded in my poker tracker at various levels(2-4nl/3-6nl/a little 5-10nl and a very little 20/40nl)I have solid stat and am a 3.9bb/100 winner over those hands....heres the irony I don't have the courage to play higher, whenever I get a large roll I cash it. we should combine our skills don't you think
I'll take Pikers problem any day of the week...its called being sensible, competent, and not wanting to go broke.
However, i'm not anxious to read of your exploits--I'll stick with Bluescouse for rousing entertainment.
perhaps inevitable i will go broke now. i'm not making as much effort as i should or thought i would to stop myself going broke (including isa money now). however, when/if i lose it all i will come back, i'm confident.
i'm not completely resigned to going broke though, i just wont be surprised if it happens.
wouldn't mind reading ungar's bio actually, will buy it when i have a little more money.
hey rob, nice what u are doing with dtd, gl to u with that, great what you are doing for the game and europe. i can't quit now. the alternatives are much worse than this rollercoaster. i have listened to loads and loads of advice last few weeks from many players, some high stakes players, some low. it could be very soon that i change my whole approach to the game.
my dad is keen on isas so he told me to get one, so i did.
hey snoops, ty for beagle award. love the caption for marc goodwin. i used to play for the buzz, but the blog has converted me, that, coupled with the fact of having money and then losing it, into someone who prioritises making money first (i still want to enjoy the game). i don't want to quit, but i haven't played tonight =), probably won't tomorrow either. i'd only get into debt with those i know, but i really don't think that will happen and they might say no so then i'd get a job.
hi pikers, i don't see you not wanting to move up a problem. you are protecting your roll unlike me =(.
This blog has been great entetainment up until now - like watching a carcrash. I fear it is to end badly quite soon.
Bluescouse, you are clearly a nice youngfellow - and I have only two questions for you:
Are you completely honest with your parents and close friends regarding the stakes you play at and the money you have won and lost over the course of this blog?
Irregardless of the answer to the above, would it be possible for you to explain to them that you are now fuelling your poker with ISA savings and the like?
To be honest, I'm not sure whether yes or no answers to the above questions would be more shocking.
I would argue that you are no more than a degenerate gambler at this stage. Your sample size of hands and inabillity to beat the lower levels suggest that you cannot be classed as a quality poker player.
There has been a multitude of good advice given to you throughout the last few months. I have my fingers crossed that you will snap out of this downward spiral, take whatever money you have left - and take off travelling or go to University or something. I doubt it will happen though.
Good luck.
i'm not completely resigned to going broke though, i just wont be surprised if it happens.
Scouse that is a contradiction!!
If your not surprised if you go broke you will call with weak hands "hoping"...
I know a lot of people on here have said this and i am surprised by the people on here who don't know you/have never met/don't know your real name who are really worried about your situation.
I know it won't make a difference but ill say it lots anyway..
STOP PLAYING POKER
STOP PLAYING POKER
STOP PLAYING POKER
STOP PLAYING POKER
STOP PLAYING POKER
STOP PLAYING POKER
STOP PLAYING POKER
STOP PLAYING POKER
Bluescouse,
You ignore all of these warnings to your detriment.
How can you "Come back stronger" when you refuse to address the issues of your complete lack of self control??
Planning on borrowing money for when you go broke--come on--you're becoming delusional to say this is not a problem.
Where will you draw the line---just how in debt could you go? You dont seem to grasp the value of money...
When i was in my early 20's, I went through a phase where i refused to work. I maxed out a couple of credit cards for a grand each and then proceeded to not pay them off for a LONG time.
That decision has dogged me for close to ten years now.
You have no clue what you are messing with Bluescouse.
I hope you figure it out without having to pay too big a price.
Poker's a selfish business, and I get a buzz reading your blog. To be consistent I'd need to give you some appallingly bad advice so that you have plenty of material to write about.
Here's the worst advice I can think of. Can you see anything you aren't already doing, or considering doing?
* Play loose with your current money, cos that's almost gone anyway. You can always tighten up sometime in the future when you've lost it.
* Borrow money to stay in action, even if you have to piss off your friends and frighten the people who love you.
* Ignore all this twaddle about bankroll management. So what if all the winning players protect their money (except the ones who died alone and broke)?
* Play in the highest games you can fund. Put all your money into action when you play, cos that way you might get lucky and be able to play higher still (with all your money on the table, in case you get lucky, so you can move up, etc.).
* When you are on tilt, chase.
* Play the best players you can find, even if they play you like a fish.
* Don't bother keeping records or studying the game. Rely on outdraws and suck outs to get a winning session.
I've never watched you play. Even if I had, I'm not that great a player that I could pass judgement on your ability. But you keep saying you don't have any discipline, and everything I've seen and read says that discipline is the major difference between long-term winners and losers.
I'm not wishing you good luck, because that's bollocks. You can be as lucky as Lucifer and still lose if you can't control your gamble. In that case you really do have to stop playing.
Shit, I forgot to be selfish. You should ask yourself why so many selfish poker players are concerned enough to give you good advice.
great blog !!!
best out there by miles.
never posted before but it seems you are looking for advice, my advice is NOT to listen to anyone that posts here, you obviously have some sort of ability to play winning poker, i believe your recent crash is mainly down to shrewd players reading your thoughts on here.
anyone who can make it from nothing to the amazing heights you did , only needs to think about past achievements.
you are young , if you fuck it up, no biggie, you did what you felt was best, no responsibilities.
as you get older you get jealous of guys like yourself, enjoy it while you can and MOST IMPORTANT before anything else ...ENJOY IT AND GOOD LUCK
Is he really enjoying it, though?
Thats the question.
I'm sure he enjoyed the highs, playing and winning thousands of dollars...and yes, it made a great blog and a great story.
But is he enjoying it now? Why on Earth would he be able to get back to where he was (+250 K)? The only way would be if he continued to risk his bankroll and play crazy to get there again...which would mean he'd lose it all AGAIN anyway.
So the point that he's young and just enjoy himself...it doesnt fly.
If he is a good player, his best bet would be to figure out why he's lacking self control and see if he can master that element of his psyche. Personally, I was never able to so I walked away from the game.
Does it make me jealous? I'll be honest, I am not even 1 percent jealous of Bluescouse right now. I'm jealous of guys like Piker who can play winning poker over thousands and thousands of hands, make extra cash, and not go broke.
I love this blog but i feel sorry for the guy behind the blog.
To some extent I agree with StevieP. Because what is clear that if Blue was going to take the advice about serious bankroll management on board, he would have already done so by now. So people posting about how he should do this that and the other are kind of wasting their time since its all been said before. That's not to say that they dont mean well, or have good intentions. Yes it is a fantastic blog, but im gonna just let the guy play and never post anything negative.
i think someone else spoke volumes earlier when they said I hope you are not keeping all of this away from those close to you. No-one likes to admit they have lost a lot, but if you keep going the way you are they are going to find out the nasty way when someone knocks on the door to take away the telly.
Either stop now, or play some tournies instead of cash. That way you can still get your buzz of throwing in 50,000 chips, but at least that way they are only chips and not real dollars.
Your style might even suit MTTs at times, but more importantly you wont face these jaw-dropping swings.
scouse,
i have been following your blog from the very start and can only echoe the sentiments of other readers. I think the core of your issue is your guilt at letting your readers down. Unfortunately you seem to have lured yourself into a catch 22. On one hand you have a very succesful blog which has prospered with the wins. This is a small wheel in the cog of your success and though you feel compelled not to 'let your readers down', all the encouragement offered by other peoples' comments can only act to fuel your demise. People should not condone this, i feel you think this blog is integral to your ability on refelecting upon your own play. The fact that you don't want to let your fellow readers down suggests that you are separating yourself from the problem which is, you. It is not the readers you are letting down but yourself and until you can identify that you are at the nucleus of this problem then your issue with vast leakages will not subside.
The catch 22 being that, with all the growth and prosperity of this blog, so too does your desire to keep playing in the biggest games manifest. It seems you have a nihilistic desire to clean yourself out which you would have to identify with cognitive therapy or, keep your readers entertained with a classic rags to riches story for which other notions mentioned dozens of times such as bankroll management would render impossible.
So while other readers want to offer their encouragement and support, the further this blog grows, the more inclined scouse feels he is to keep us informed of his winnings in the biggest games.
Scouse, like others i wish you all the luck but wish people would stop offering their praises. Do not borrow that money and talk to people who can help you on a pschoanalytical level and not as a gambling mentor.
hamburgla
Why do you insist on playing 10-20$ and 25-50 No Limit when it is clear that you are not that great a player to be playing these stakes. I have been watching you from 3-4am here and you are playing shockingly. Just after pushing all-in pre for 525$ with a6 suited. You must have went on one hell of a lucky run when you won the 150k because on the evidence of your play there is no way you can be a long term winner. I would make that -4k$ at least so far this last hour and wouldn't you know here comes another 1000$ rebuy. I wonder how long it will take before you lose this 1k$. I don't think you should quit the game but you are trying to punch way above your wait.
1. is it fun to lose so much money?
2. do you value money or is it just like playing with a few chips? the way you throw it around it would seem it.
3. Do you not realise the same players are following you to lower stakes because they know your the fool at the table?
You're blog is a great read but you seriously need to see someone about your addiction.
here's a link I found on google - you should maybe contact someone here and get some help before you start borrowing more than you can afford. www.counsellingwales.org/
in the time its taken me to write this I've seen you lose another 1k$ -
thats -5k over two tables since ive been watching you the past hour and a half.
Dealer: Game #4153420474, BLUEscous wins pot ($2047) with A Straight, Eight high
BLUEscous: sry monsieur, i am tilted
Monsieur: np
Monsieur: vnh
you chased on a up and down draw to win the above pot and got very lucky.
BLUEscous: nice of u to take that approach but it was horrible suckout
Monsieur: bah it happen
The very next hand this happened:
Dealer: Game #4153420604, Doxyferm wins pot ($1524)
You lose 700$ odd of it.
And you wonder why Monsieur is being so nice. He knows in the long run he will beat players like you.
You really need to consider playing lower.
I've been reading the blog and comments for a while now.
The two over riding things I'd like to say are firstly, please don't borrow money from anyone because this is the road to ruin. I've never borrowed money from anyone and it's definitely helped me. I also have always regretted lending money to people I know so I won't do it any more either.
What I'm trying to say is that I really don't think that borrowing money to play high stakes which you have no track record of beating over even a half-decent sample size is the way forward. It's just going to cause hurt for you and the people you borrow from.
My second piece of advice is to consider writing a book.
It's obvious that you have probably the most popular poker blog online (that I know of anyway) so immediately you are well known and it's obvious you have a talent for writing and I'm sure your last year's poker career would make for a pretty good read. There's not many poker books out regarding the online rollercoaster so maybe it's a good niche to exploit.
I think that it would be a good way to generate the income for a new roll, which obviously somehow you need to get the discipline to protect (30 buyins minimum and not playing when tired/drunk/tilting).
Obviously it's up to you what you do but it seems everyone who is commenting on here wants to see you improve your situation.
Good luck man,
FP.
I actually think writing a book is a very very good idea. This is extremely publishable stuff. and unlike many other books about internet poker which would have a short shelf life due to the nature of sites changing over time, this will still be readable several years from now!
If you want a ghost writer, let me know!
Hows the weekend went Ed ?
Book would be awesome.
Paul
Your pretty blase about losing a quarter of a mill aint ya? Im a few years older than you , so I can kind of understand your situation. I would suggest learning more about the game.You obviously have natural talent. How I would love to be able to be as aggressive as you! A place I find that offers a lot of help is:
www.pocketfives.com
and of course the forums at
http://twoplustwo.com/.
Read through all the articles and guides. Mate you need to put the work , studying and hard-graft in . These big game players have done - your not that good that you can just rely on your natural talent to beat them.
my parents do know the situation with isa. i had to borrow from them against it and obviously they want to know what's going on, howcome i want the money etc. they do also read the blog occasionally.
my mates ask alot how i am getting on as well, i've never kept it a secret how i am doing. i'm not embarassed about losing alot of money and i don't yet feel under any stress of nearing the borrowing money/getting a job stage.
sry united113, i'll admit my english skills is suspect at times- meant to say i might well go broke but i will try not to let it happen =).
hamburgla, your probably spot on with your comment. some of the attraction of the blog is playing high stakes which i wouldn't do for a few months at least if i played sensible brm and playing under-rolled also means often you don't know whether i will win or lose the next day.
hi low stakes, i'm playing very badly. i'm trying to cut down on all the stupid plays asap. on that particular pot it wasn't the call with the outside straight draw that was so bad, i'm sure i was pot committed at that point, it was the fact i made a call for about 75% of my chips with something like 67s. but yes i got very lucky, i think he had an overpair and flopped a set.
he is probably being so nice about it because he is a nice guy. i don't know who monsieur is but it was a very bad beat and he handled himself very well.
fruitypro, i've not done enough to write a good book. looking at bennyboi's last post, he says about the two scandis he met who's swings are far bigger than mine in much shorter a period of time. it's a nice suggestion, quite flattering even but i would never get it done either. thanks offer also simon.
i should read 2+2 more, i'm interested in that stuff just don't get round to reading it much. don't think i've been on pocket fives before but will check it out, thanks mate.
my parents do know the situation with isa. i had to borrow from them against it and obviously they want to know what's going on, howcome i want the money etc. they do also read the blog occasionally.
You make out that your parents are very laid back about your ups and downs. Some poker players will see this as a good thing, but I like the fact that my parents ask me how I'm running every few days and they remind me of the value of money. If I was in your situation, they'd have intervened by now, taken my credit cards probably and got me into counseling. How they've let you lose the price of a house in a couple of months under their own roof is beyond me. Considering your ups and downs I can't believe they only occasionally read your blog. I think they're crazier than you are.
The fact that you think there's little else for you outside of poker than earning £6 an hour somewhere should really make you value money a lot more than you do as you've got nothing to fall back on. I see you're still playing NL£10/£20 on a bankroll that can hardly even be five figures, so less than 5 max buy-ins. You are bound to be completely broke over the coming months and looking for that £6 an hour job. Your parents will wonder why they were so stupid once they stop getting their £1k a month.
I don't think your bad brm is your main problem. The main problem boils down to your laziness. Yor're too lazy to learn poker from the wealth of information that's at your fingertips. Too lazy to to work a full day. (I mean since when is a 5-6 hour session that long?! most pros think nothing of playing 8 hour days multi tabling). What do you do all day? Have you thought about going to Uni? Poker will still be here after a few years. Failed poker pro won't read that well on a cv. Stop deluding yourself that you'll be rich this year. It ain't going to happen. £500k? total fantasy, if you go for it, you'll be in debt in no time.
And please, people, stop saying things like "you've obviously got game" and crap like that. There's no evidence that he's a winning player, but plenty of evidence that he plays appaulingly a lot of the time, so stop encouraging him, you're only lining the pockets of a few very wealthy real pros.
this is the last time I'm posting here, it's a waste of time to say anymore. I'd say good luck, but all the luck in the world won't be enough to save Bluescouse if he doesn't change his attitude.
I've never posted this, and just found this site today. But, I've read a decent amount, and I'm disappointed with the posters here. They are candy coating things for you.
First, it's mean, but it's true. Your a gambling addicted idiot. You are living on the highs. You aren't smart, you aren't bright. You won't come out ahead. You never will. At best, you will be one of those "successful" people that people are shocked die dead in a ditch broke. Sadly, that's the best case scenario. Likely, you will end up with no credit, no shot to move up, and little to do. Thank god for bankruptcy, otherwise you might have to commit suicide.
I don't even care if your a good player. Everyone gets suckedout on. The way you play, you can't survive those, let alone when you actually make a bad play.
You refuse to take any sensible advice, calling it willpower. At least you realize you don't have it. Now, it's cost you. You will just keep losing. Forget what you lost, it's long gone. You won't get it back (in any meaningful way. If you win it today, you'll lose it tomorrow).
Do yourself a favor and sit through a group meeting with gamblers. I think you'd be shocked to see that they all were like you. Your most of the way in the pit, but maybe you can stop before you go in too deep. Your on a set path to failure, it's your choice, but I think your nothing but a weak stupid idiot for not taking a serious look here.
You'll think otherwise, but your wrong. If your too deep, get someone you trust and lay it all on the line, and watch how appauld they become.
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